Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 02/19/04 9:16 am:
Laban was NOT a decendant of Abraham. He was either Sara's nephew or her cousin, I'm not sure which. But he had no blood connection to Abraham. Their families were connected twice through marriage: Sarah to Abraham and Rachel and Leah to Jacob.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by curious98 on 02/19/04 10:53 am:
For Praisejah,


I’m not going to dispute none of what Elliot is telling you re. Jacob’s experiments with his sheep. Besides the fact our colleague Elliot is a very learned man when it comes to Biblical matters, he has a tremendous advantage over me, i.e. he completely believes in the Holy Scriptures to the point –I think- of accepting many texts at their face value.
I think I’ve already mention to you I’m a Christian too, but I find it tremendously difficult to accept that GOD “sent an angel to Jacob to give him the secret of genetics”, which –from what I know- Jacob didn’t bother to pass on to his descendants.
In fact it seems that it wasn’t until 1865, that the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel exposed the principles of heredity when he discovered that by crossing white flower and purple flower plants, the result was a hybrid offspring.
It is not, of course, I believe GOD could not send an angel to Jacob with the secrets of genetics. GOD knows all the secrets of everything in the Universe –secrets we have no idea of- and GOD can disclose them whoever GOD chooses to. GOD is simply Omniscient, for GOD has created everything…
My problem is I find hard to believe that GOD could have been tipping Jacob on some specific genetic principles without giving him, for instance, other genetic specifics that might have helped to cure leprosy or cancer, to mention just these two…
On the other hand, this would imply certain favoritism on GOD’s side, which is also hard to accept, when we admit GOD’s justice is infinite… therefore, instead of treating all of us equally, assuming GOD is intervening in humans’ lives at all, which is another point to debate, eventually.
I know, as a Roman Catholic, that prayer is the tool we have to communicate with GOD. But when we pray we are almost always asking GOD to distinguish us from the rest by granting us some personal favor, which just shows how selfish –and how very human- we are. But we hardly realize -when praying- we are asking GOD –with some of our prayers- to be unfair, by preferring me to you, and doing something for me alone, like keeping my son in good health...
What about your son’s health or the health of the millions of sons that die of starvation every day…
Does not that imply I think I’m better than you and therefore, I deserve more attention?
I maintain that the only prayer we are truly entitled to send GOD is that which asks GOD to help us on our way to be able to reach some day our final destination and be able to enjoy, for good, the Vision of GOD in Heaven, or wherever GOD may be.
Last but not least, I may not accept at face value all that is written in the Scriptures, but I think I’m entitled to that. Our friend Elliot, for one, does not accept the fact Jesus was the Son of GOD, which is perfectly fine with me and I deeply respect, though probably that’s a bit more important than believing in the Genetics Angel…
Best regards,
Curious98

Clarification/Follow-up by ETWolverine on 02/19/04 1:14 pm:
Curious

>>>I find it tremendously difficult to accept that GOD “sent an angel to Jacob to give him the secret of genetics”, which –from what I know- Jacob didn’t bother to pass on to his descendants.<<<

Of course he did. Why else do you think his children all went into the family business. All of the 12 sons of Jacob were sheperds, including Joseph. And they were VERY successful at it, which is why they still had money to buy food from Egypt when everyone else was starving to death during the 7-year famine.

>>>In fact it seems that it wasn’t until 1865, that the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel exposed the principles of heredity when he discovered that by crossing white flower and purple flower plants, the result was a hybrid offspring.<<<

Wrong. That is simply when they were written down as rules to follow. But most sheperds after the time of Jacob pretty much knew how to breed sheep and cattle for the traits they were looking for. They didn't know it was called genetics, and the rules weren't written anywhere, but they knew (at least by wrote) that you don't breed certain sheep with other types of sheep. As a matter of fact, certain genetic facts and rules are mentioned in several places in the Talmud (not by the name 'genetics' of course), especially in Tractate Taharoth, but elsewhere as well. And the Talmud clearly pre-dates Mendel by millenia. Specifically the Talmud mentions, when discussing how to recognize kosher animals, certain rules of breeding and heredity among animals.

>>>My problem is I find hard to believe that GOD could have been tipping Jacob on some specific genetic principles without giving him, for instance, other genetic specifics that might have helped to cure leprosy or cancer, to mention just these two…<<<

And why should he give us those cures? That was not his purpose in passing the information on to Jacob. His purpose in passing this on to Jacob was the begining of the prophesy of making him and his decendants a great nation. To do that, G-d needed to make Jacob rich enough to send his sons to Egypt for food, and eventually move there himself... thus culminating in the Slavery, the Exile and the begining od the Nation. Everything has a purpose, Curious, and G-d had a reason for giving Jacob this secret. Curing cancer was NOT the purpose.

>>>On the other hand, this would imply certain favoritism on GOD’s side, which is also hard to accept, when we admit GOD’s justice is infinite… <<<

If you believe in the concept of a "chosen people" then there certanly is an element of favoritism in this. Jacob was chosen as the forefather of G-d's nation, his favorite Children. And yes, it is elitist.

>>>Does not that imply I think I’m better than you and therefore, I deserve more attention? <<<

Not that you deserve it, just that you want it. G-d alone decides whether you deserve it. And in some cases he decides that someone doe indeed deserve special attention.

Best wishes, Curious.

Elliot

Clarification/Follow-up by PraiseJah on 02/19/04 2:45 pm:
Elliot, you are correct - Laban was Abraham's nephew.

About the chosen race - Isaiah and others foretold a time when God would take a people for His name outn of ALL nations, and also that the "builders" of his temple would reject the "foundation stone" of that new multiracial people for His name. Isaiah 28:16. Isaiah 2:1-4. Jeremiah 31:31-34 Note that Jeremiah speaks of a new covenant with the law written on people's hearts, not on tablets of stone and that the Jews as a nation would breach his covenant made at Mt Sinai.

I agree with you - God did not need to send an angel to Jacob to reveal the Harvey Weinberg rule of genetic distribution. The ancients knew these things by observation long before scientists put names to them.

Clarification/Follow-up by Yiddishkeit on 02/24/04 3:41 pm:

PraiseJah-

I've been away from the computer for some days now...looks like a few interesting topic being discussed. Jews are an ethinicity due to our cultures Askenazic, Sephardic, Yemin backgrounds etc... and are currently represented by many various races (for lack of a better word). We don't consider ourselves as the "chosen race" or the "chosen people" it's like my Rabbi said, "we are the choosing people." To speak precisely, in the language of the anthropologists, there is no such thing as a "Jewish race." It is true that Jews sprang from the Mediterranian subdivision of the Caucasiod race. Over the centruries, however, as the result of migration round the globe, Jews developed a multitude of different physical characteristics because because of their fusion with other racial blends wherever they lived. Although, unlike Christainity, they never actively misionized, Jews have readily accepted sincere converts into the fold.

Jeremiah's relating of a new covenant does not remove the contract of Torah, nor is that covenant to be confused as the Christian testament. In Judaism that covenent spoken by Jeremiah has yet to happen, therefore another issue that seperates our faiths respectfully.


Bobby