Clarification/Follow-up by Petesharky on 05/18/04 10:53 am:
Well lets just look at that question for a moment. World population is thriving and more people are starving because of it. Children are unwanted and tossed in garbage pails. Did God want us to eventually wipe ourselves out by starving ourselves to death? I don't want to start a whole new topic here but ever hear of adoption. I think it's better for a child to have a chance to grow up even with same sex parents than to end up in a garbage pail.


A civil ceremony is one that is performed outside the Church. What business is it of The Church if there is a true separation of church and state. What business is it but the 2 people getting married for that matter.

Pete

Clarification/Follow-up by Cherab on 05/18/04 11:52 am:

A lot of people feel as you do.

Clarification/Follow-up by Petesharky on 05/18/04 1:44 pm:
Steve,

I have gone to that site and I see what you are talking about. But lets take a poll on how many people want their taxes to go up next year and I bet almost all would say no. Yet the government passes new tax laws and increases oall the time.

I hate to keep using Black Americans as an example but in the early part of the century if you took a poll as to how many Americans wanted Black Americans to be treated as equal? I have a feeling it would be a strong oppisition. Yet the civil rights movement happened anyway and though a lot of blood was spilled and hatred expressed they did finally win their equal right.

Hatred is hatred. How many people polled answered no strictly because they strongly are opposed to a gay marriage and how many because they hate queers and dykes?

Clarification/Follow-up by Itsdb on 05/18/04 2:24 pm:
Pete,

We're not talking about fiscal matters, and the law defines your tax burden just as the law defines marriage as between one man and one woman...or at least it did. Courts do not have the right to legislate. Mayors and county clerks do not have the right to pick and choose which laws their office upholds and which laws their office subverts.

While I understand your position, you should be disturbed that issues such as this are being force-fed to us by pressing the issue in the courts, circumventing the legislative process and totally ignoring the will of the people.

Gays already had an equal right to enter into a legal marriage. It is not discrimination, it is not segregation, it is not oppression. Nobody is advocating owning gays as slaves, forcing them to sit in the back of the bus, drink from their own fountains, sending them to their own schools, keeping them from visiting their partner in the hospital or knowing about their condition.

Calling it hatred to defend the institution of marriage is absurd, and frankly I'm fed up with "enlightened" people equating those of us with even a hint of conservative values as bigoted, ignorant and stupid. Gays want understanding and acceptance, fine. Gays want the right to a "civil union," fine. Gays want domestic partner benefits, fine. Gays want equal protection under the law, fine. Gays want to force me into accepting whatever definition of marriage and sexuality no matter how bizarre, "punish" me for defending the only historical and workable definition of marriage and force feed their agenda on me...that crosses the line.

It was just a short while ago that civil unions supposedly would've satisfied the homosexual community, but it's clear from their own words they won't be satisfied until their entire agenda is in place, and that offends me. What gives gays the right to be "radically reordering society's view of reality?"

Steve

Clarification/Follow-up by Petesharky on 05/18/04 7:45 pm:
No your right no one has the right to walk into any door and dictate how they conduct their affairs inside. That also goes for ignorant people going into the doors of gay households and saying "you can't be married. You can't do this you can't do that. WAH WAH WAH BLAH BLAH" Who are you, the church or anyone else to decide what people do in their lives. What gives you me or any man for that matter the right to decide what 2 people can do with their bodies and their emotions. Even the Pope is meerly a man of flesh and blood. What gives you the right or anyone else on this board to decifer what God's word is. The Bible is written by man and for the man of 2000 years ago. Don't preach the word of God that God hasn't written himself. That would be the ultimate sin to me.


I never once mentioned that I accepted a church wedding for these people only a civil ceremony. Nor that the church should be required to perform these ceremonies. What I did say is what business of the church is it except the fact that they will lose the big donation that comes with a wedding if a wedding is not performed there.

As I have mentioned in my post my brother is gay but the thought of him being married has never entered my mind. personally I doubt it has entered his mind. He is in a long term relationship with someone and happy. I said if he was to get married I would have to accept it or lose a brother. But if I accept it for my brother then I must accept it for all. If they are married outside the church and feel condemed that is their feeling and not yours or anyone elses. It is not up to you to say what they are feeling. Unless you have a mind reading device that I don't know about. When the bell tolls for them it is them who must answer not you or anyone else so what makes you think that you should have a say in that. Who here can say that they know what will be asked? Proof that wasn't written by man.

Maybe everyone here is right homosexuals and lesbians should all denounce their feelings and emotions, and get married in a conventional manner that is acceptable to all of you. Then have some children ahhh yes the population will thrive then. And then one day just decide that they can't do it. They are trapped in a relationship with someone that they are not able to love. Then they will really feel guilt. What usually happens then is they leave. What could happen if the guilt is strong enough is suicide. Which is what happend to a friend of mine and my brother's.

I think the worst thing about this is that most of you seem to be driven by the fact that they would be having sex with each other. Is that what marriage is to all of you just sex? It seems to drive most of your answers. even throwing out quotes from the Bible about it. Is sex what drives marriage sex? No it is love.


What you can't seem to absorb is that they love their partner like I love my wife. I would kill for her and I would die for her. She is my everything. To a gay couple the feeling is the same. They are not just there for the sex but because they have feelings and emotions and what might seem repulsive to you well too bad live your life. I am not that thrilled when I see 2 guys kissing either or girls. YUCK!!!!

I was always taught that God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes and that there is a reason for everything that God has put on this earth. That means Homosexuals also. They are children of God as you and I are.

Do you question God in putting them here?

Clarification/Follow-up by Petesharky on 05/19/04 7:18 am:
I do agree with you that this is a Christian forume and I will get a Christian answer. If I posed it in the Gay forume I am sure I would get a different reply. This was not really a question but an answer to another question that I posted in a question form because I didn't want the person who asked the question to think I was attacking them. Now if you can figure out what I just said please let me know because I have no clue. But again I never mentioned a church ceremony.

Clarification/Follow-up by paraclete on 05/19/04 7:28 am:
pete I dont understand what the furore is all about.

For the ordinary person the choice is between a church and a state wedding. If this isnt possible for gays then they have to accept that the way they behave doesn't comply with the majority, sorry thats the way it is!
The reality is I cant marry my cousin even thought I might like too! There are rules and thats the way it is! I know ordinary people who live in sin, why, I dont know, but they do. so what's the difference. I'm not going to say, like some people do, " not that there is anything wrong with that". that's hyprocracy there is something wrong, that's the way it is.
as for me an my house I will serve the Lord